Transcript · 文字實錄

 

Feng Xin: Nonresident parents in Beijing have been signing a petition against a policy that will continue to limit their children’s eligibility to take the national college entrance exam in the city. For the past three decades in China, high school graduates could only take the national college entrance exam, or gaokao, in their home provinces. That’s where their household permits, or hukou, were registered. However, 2011 statistics show that one in six Chinese citizens no longer lives where their hukou was registered. Having to return to one’s home province to be eligible to take the exam has created a huge problem for hundreds of thousands of Chinese families.

北京的非戶籍家長最近聯名簽署了一份訴訟書，反對北京剛剛出臺的異地高考方案。在過去的三十年里，中國的高中畢業生只能在其家鄉省份參加高等教育入學考試，也就是說只能在他們的戶口所在地參加高考。然而，2011年的數據顯示，每六名中國公民中就有一名不在其戶口所在地居住。必須回到原籍才有資格參加高考，已經給中國千百萬個家庭帶來了巨大的問題。

 

Parents in migrant destinations like Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou have for years been advocating equal exam eligibility between resident and nonresident children. Last August, the State Council’s General Office issued a document, asking provincial governments to make policies before the end of 2012. While much of the public was anxious to hear from China’s metropolitan areas, Beijing, Shanghai and Guangdong province didn’t announce their policies until Dec 30.Four days before Beijing’s policy came out I followed a group of parents in Beijing to the city’s education commission.

在外來人口聚集的地區，如北京、上海和廣東，家長們為子女能夠享有與當地學生同等的考試權利已經爭取了多年。去年八月，國務院辦公廳發出通知要求各省級政府在2012年年底之前制定相關政策。當公眾無比焦急地等待這幾個特大地區公布政策時，北京、上海和廣東直到12月30日才最終公布了各自的方案。就在北京政策出臺的前四天，我跟著一些非京籍家長來到了北京市教委。

 

Liang Shuangcai moved to Beijing 12 years ago from Henan province. He works as an auditor. His 11-year-old daughter grew up in the city like many of her peers, except that the family doesn’t have Beijing hukou. Together with dozens of parents, Liang has been visiting the Beijing Municipal Commission of Education every Thursday morning since September 2012, immediately after the State Council issued the document asking provincial governments to make policies.

梁雙才12年前從河南省遷來北京，他11歲的女兒和同伴們一樣在這個城市長大，只是這個家庭并沒有北京戶口。與其他幾十位家長一起，從2012年9月起，梁雙才每周四上午都會來到北京市教委，那是在國務院發布要求各省市制定相應政策的通知之后。

 

Liang Shuangcai: Pretty soon my child will be facing the same problem. There are hundreds of thousands of migrant children nowadays. They all face one common problem. It's not just my family's problem, or my child's, but a social problem. Every time we come and hear nothing. The education commission always repeated the same line: "It's in the process. There's nothing we can tell you." Today is already the (27th )，and there are only four days left. They still said they don't know.

梁雙才：看著還剩幾年的時間很快，馬上就和別的孩子一樣。目前就是在北京有幾十萬隨遷子女，大家都面臨著一個共性的問題。這個不僅僅就是我們一個家庭的問題，也不僅僅是我們一個孩子的問題，它是一個社會問題。我們每次來基本上是沒有什么結果，教委仍然說“政策正在制定中，沒有什么可以（告訴）你們的，具體情況不知道”。每次來都重復同樣的話。今天已經（27）號了，離年底只有（4）天的時間了，仍然是不知道。

 

Feng Xin: You've come so many times and got the same reply. Why do you still come?

馮欣：來這么多次得到的答復一樣，為什么還要來呢？

 

Liang Shuangcai: Well, since they don't give us a response, we are worried. We are anxious. We wanted to know if our appeal has been heard by any authorities at all.

梁雙才：唉，正因為他們不給我們答復，所以我們就不放心，我們心里面不踏實，我們想問訴求引起沒有引起有關部門重視。

 

While Liang’s daughter may still have a few years before going to college, Mrs Yang, a woman reluctant to provide her real name, has a daughter who is graduating from high school in just six months.

雖然梁雙才的女兒還要再過幾年才上大學，但是一名不愿意透露真實姓名的楊女士有一個即將在六個月后高中畢業的女兒。

 

Feng Xin: Has (your daughter) registered for the exam elsewhere?

馮欣：有沒有在別的地方也報名呢？

 

Mrs Yang: No. I'm waiting. Our home province uses different textbooks. I don't know by what chance we will succeed in the exam. I have no way to estimate. If my daughter has to go back, it means one of the parents will have to do the same. I will have to rent an apartment, find a class for her to make up the missed curriculum, and also comfort her to adjust to the environment.

楊女士：沒報，我在等待。回去知道教材不一樣，考上的幾率是，我不能說占百分之多少吧，我現在沒法去評估。她回原籍面臨著我們得跟回去一個，我得回去租房子，我得回去給孩子找地方去補課，我還得安撫孩子去適應那種環境。

 

Feng Xin: How many children in your daughter's class are like her?

馮欣：現在你孩子的班級像她這樣的情況有多少？

 

Mrs Yang: Almost all of them have gone.

楊女士：幾乎都走了。

 

According to media reports, as of a week after the deadline, (the 8th of January) all provinces in the Chinese mainland except Qinghai province and Tibet autonomous region announced their policies. More than half of them, like Hebei, Heilongjiang and Fujian provinces, established relatively low bars for nonresident students. They only need to provide a complete middle school or high school record in order to be eligible. Some provinces also require their parents to provide proof of a stable job and accommodation.  

據媒體報道，在國務院規定期限的一個星期后，中國大陸除青海省及西藏自治區以外的所有省份都公布了各自的方案其中超過一半的省份，如河北、黑龍江和福建制定了對非戶籍學生門檻較低的政策。學生只需要提供完整的初中或高中學籍就可以就地參加高考；其中一些省份也要求家長提供有穩定工作及住所的證明。

 

Fewer than a dozen provinces set higher bars for nonresident families. In these regions, not only must students have longer school records or even hukou within the next few years, their parents also have to contribute income taxes and social security taxes for a certain number of years before the children become eligible.

有數個省份制定了對非戶籍家庭門檻相對高的方案。在這些地區，不僅學生要提供更長時間的學籍證明，甚至要在今后幾年取得戶口才有高考的資格；他們的家長還需要繳納個人所得稅和社會保險，并達到一定年限。

 

The toughest regions, however, are China’s metropolises – namely Beijing, Shanghai and Guangdong province. The Beijing government calls its policy “transitional”, which allows nonresident students to take the entrance exam only for secondary vocational schools starting from 2013 and higher vocational schools in 2014. Not to mention, the former requires the students to provide a three-year middle school record and their parents the same length of social security contribution;  the latter requires six years. Alternatively, nonresident high school students will be allowed to take the national college entrance exam in Beijing, but they will be admitted based on their home provinces’ admission score. But how exactly this will be implemented has not been specified.

然而，最嚴苛的地區是中國的發達地區，如北京、上海和廣東省。北京市政府稱其政策為“過渡性政策”，僅允許非京籍學生從2013年起參加中等職業技術學校的入學考試；從2014年起，參加高等職業技術學校的入學考試。更不用說，前者還需要學生提供三年的初中學籍，其父母提供三年的社保繳納記錄；而高等職業院校的入學考試資格則需要六年的證明。非京籍的高中畢業生也可以在北京參加高考，但他們只能按照原籍的分數線被錄取，這究竟如何操作，方案卻并未規定。

 

Shanghai binds nonresident children’s exam eligibility with its residence permit system. Only the children of those parents who hold a Pass A will be able to take the national college entrance exam in the city starting from 2014. But very few nonresidents in Shanghai meet the city’s requirements to receive a Pass A. Guangdong province will allow children whose parents have a residence permit and have contributed social security taxes for three years to take the exam in 2016, and the children also have to provide a complete high school record in Guangdong.

上海將非戶籍考生的高考資格與其居住證制度捆綁在一起。只有持上海市居住證A證居民的子女可以從2014年起在上海參加高考，但是很少有人能夠達到獲得A證的條件。廣東省從2016年起將允許繳納了三年社保，并取得廣東省居住證的居民子女參加高考，同時孩子必須提供完整的高中學籍。

但是如果細看，

 

However, if we look closely, we can find the blue provinces that set low bars for nonresidents are traditionally hometowns of migrant workers who leave for better opportunities. In other words, the proportion of nonresidents in the population is small. Take Shandong province as an example. According to its education department, only 8 percent of the nearly 10 million school children were nonresidents as of 2011. Local media estimate by 2014 there will be 15,000 nonresident students taking the national college entrance exam, which will have little effect on the overall student proportions.

我們會發現那些設置低門檻的藍色省份是傳統的流動人口輸出地，人們離開本地以尋求更多機會。換句話說，這些地方的外來人口比例很小。以山東省為例，根據山東省教育廳，2011年全省近1000萬義務教育學生中，只有8%是非戶籍學生。當地媒體估計，到2014年全省只有1.5萬非戶籍學生參加高考這對學生的整體構成幾乎沒有影響。

 

However, cities like Beijing present a completely different scenario. The city’s education commission said out of its 1 million school children, 40 percent are nonresident students.

但是像在北京的這樣的城市，情況完全不同。北京市教委估計在本市100萬受義務教育的學生中，40%的是非戶籍學生。

 

In terms of the orange provinces, some, like Guizhou and Yunnan provinces, although not a hotspot for migrant workers, usually post a relatively low admission score.

一些橙色的省份，如貴州和云南，雖然不是移動人口的目的地，歷來享受著較低的高考錄取分數線。

 

Beijing's policy is not what the parents were hoping for. Hu Yang, who goes by her Internet name, has been a volunteer for the advocacy group for three years. She was shocked when she first heard about the new policy.

北京的政策并不是家長們所期望的。胡楊（網名）是一位家長志愿者，為爭取隨遷子女高考奔走了三年。新出臺的方案令她非常震驚。

 

Hu Yang: I was angry and heartbroken. I was sad because we've been fighting for three years. I suffered from all sorts of pressure, but this is what I got. I just feel the government just didn't care about our appeal at all. It means children who have had nine years of compulsory education, whose parents have contributed social security taxes, only get to go to vocational schools. I think many children are outstanding students. They could have made it to good universities. The Beijing Education Commission basically didn't follow the Ministry of Education's order to make policies. It basically handed in a blank answer sheet. This is not gaokao policy. This is vocational school policy.

胡楊：我的第一個反應我是又生氣又傷心，生氣就是說整整爭取了三年了, 精神受到各個方面的壓力，竟然能出一個這樣的政策，就感覺好像政府沒把我們這群人的民生訴求放在心上，就不在乎我們。孩子有了九年義務了以后就讓這個孩子， 還要加上爸爸媽媽社保，讓孩子讀中職。我覺得有許多孩子很優秀的，他其實可以上大學上本科，上更好的學校。北京市教委出臺的政策幾乎就是沒有按照國家教育部的要求在出，你等于是出了白卷，這不叫異地高考政策，這叫異地高考中職高職政策。

 

While nonresident parents in Beijing are disappointed in the new policy, their opponents, like Liu Yang, are not happy either. Liu has been fighting against the parent advocates by joining a few active local bloggers to express their opposing voices. His blog and micro-blog has attracted thousands of followers.?

北京的非戶籍家長對新出臺的方案很失望，他們的反對者，比如劉洋，也對這個方案不滿意。劉洋加入了本地幾個活躍的博客作者通過微博和博客表達他們反對的聲音。他吸引了上千的粉絲。

 

Feng Xin: Liu Yang, I noticed that people who care about the issue are mostly parents. You are not a parent. Why do you pay so much attention to it?

 

馮欣：劉洋，我注意到關注異地高考這個事情比較多的大部分是家長，你并不是家長為什么對這個事情也這么關注？

 

Liu Yang: I think this is not only an education issue. We as Beijing residents not only care about education, but the city's capacity to take in migrants. If (the government) were to loosen the exam constraints, it would have to set some (time) threshold, like two or three years. This would encourage some people to move to Beijing two or three years earlier. Such one-way population flow brought by the policy is not what the city can bear.

劉洋：因為這個問題本身現在體現出來的是在教育這個環節上，其實我們北京人關心的并不僅僅是教育，它是一個城市容納外來人口的極限的問題。你比方說現在如果你要開放異地高考，你肯定會設置門檻，你設置門檻比方說三年，比方說兩年，其實是會讓一些人提前三年兩年來到北京。就在這種想法底下帶來無序的人口的單向流動，是這個城市不能承受的。

 

Feng Xin: I don't know if you've met any nonresident parents.

馮欣：我不知道你有沒有接觸過一些非京籍家長？

 

Liu Yang: Yes.

劉洋：接觸過。

 

Feng Xin: What reason do you think they have for the nonresident exam eligibility to be granted?

馮欣：你認為他們想要推行異地高考的理由是什么？

 

Liu Yang: I think their reason is one word: fairness. However, what is educational fairness? I think we already have educational fairness. If Beijing or Shanghai kids could take the college entrance exam in any city by holding a Beijing or Shanghai ID card, but others couldn't, OK, that would be unfair. But if Beijing or Shanghai kids can only take the exam in their home regions, how is it unfair? Also, it would be unfair to those who are originally not from Beijing but have worked so hard to acquire a Beijing hukou.

劉洋：他們的理由就是，公平，兩個字。其實我認為，所謂的教育公平，什么叫教育公平？現在本身就是教育公平。你說如果北京上海的孩子，拿著我北京上海的身份證，如果我到哪一個城市都能參加高考，（而）別人不行，OK，那叫不公平。但是如果北京上海的孩子也只能在自己的戶籍所在地參加高考怎么叫不公平？而且包括那些現在已經通過了自己非常艱難的努力獲得了北京戶籍的原本并非是北京籍人口的這些同志來說，也不是很公平。

 

Feng Xin: Then how do we solve the education and exam problems of those children who were born in Beijing and just don't have the city's hukou?

馮欣：比如說像這樣一部分從小生長在北京的，只是戶籍不在北京的孩子，那他們的考試，他們的教育（問題）怎么解決呢？

 

Liu Yang: I think it is definitely hard to solve now. From a humane point of view, we shouldn't bar the children from going to school. But there are two issues. First, high school education is not compulsory education. In terms of the child, you don't have to go to high school. In terms of the government, it's no longer obliged to provide you with compulsory education. It's a matter of obligation for both sides. That's one issue. Another…Yes, I feel sorry for them. But does this have to be solved by the government? In any case if I were a parent, I wouldn't put my child in such an unstable situation, where I know he wouldn't be allowed to take the exam here but still let him attend schools here for more than 10 years after he was born. I wouldn't.

劉洋：我認為這個現在確實比較難解決，從人道的角度來說，不應該不讓人家去念書，但是現在有兩個問題，第一個就是本身高中階段的教育它不是義務教育，你作為孩子來說，你沒有接受教育的義務，我可以不念高中了。對于政府來說，我沒有給你提供教育的義務了，這是雙方的義務。一方面是這個，再一方面就是我覺得，是可憐，但是一定就得政府來解決么？反正我如果作為家長，我不會把我的孩子置于這種不穩定的狀態，我知道他明明是不能參加高考，但是我非讓他在這接受十幾年的教育，從出生就在這兒，我不會這樣的。

 

Feng Xin: Beijing just announced a “transitional” policy. What do you think of it?

馮欣：北京市教委剛剛公布了一個過渡性方案，您對這個方案怎么看？

 

Liu Yang: I strongly disapprove of it. I think this policy took away some of the vocational education resources to make a compromise. And also this policy speaks about one word: drag. It says it's transitional policy. But who is going to make the final version? It didn't say. It might well just be left for the next government to solve the issue.

劉洋：很反對這個方案，我認為這個方案其實拿了高職，拿了一部分的高考資源去做了一些妥協，而且這個政策里面還有一個關鍵點是拖，它說了自己是一個過渡性政策，那最終的政策由誰來定呢？沒有說。很有可能到最后就是下一任的政府來解決這個問題。

 

 

In fact, the discussion of whether to allow nonresident students to take the college entrance exam outside the limits of their hukou has been going on for years. Zhu Yongxin is a member of the National People's Congress' Standing Committee. He submitted a proposal to the education and public security ministries during China's two political sessions in 2012.

事實上，有關是否允許隨遷子女在就讀地不因戶籍的限制

而參加高考已進行了多年。朱永新是全國人大常委，在2012年兩會時，他向教育部和公安部提交了一項建議。

 

Feng Xin: In the last few days, we finally saw cities like Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou brought out their policies. First of all, are you satisfied with the current outcome?

馮欣：那么終于在最后幾天，也等到了北京、上海、廣州這些大城市的方案。那么，您對目前的結果滿意嗎？

 

Zhu Yongxin: I should say generally I'm satisfied that almost all provinces have made their policies. But I have some reservations in terms of some specific content. I think there is still room where we could've done better.

朱永新：應該說首先大家能夠把方案出來總體上是滿意的，對出來的內容來說我覺得還是有保留的意見，我覺得還是有一些空間可以做得更好。

 

Feng Xin: For example?

馮欣：比如呢？

 

Zhu Yongxin: Like Beijing's policy. Candidates may take the exam in Beijing but have to be admitted based on their home provinces' admission score in 2014. I think policies like this could have been made more open to allow children of those parents who have been working and paying taxes in Beijing for a long time to be admitted here, because this is a matter of civil rights.

朱永新：比如像北京的方案，考生還要在北京考試，錄取還得回本地去錄取，另外到04年才開始實行。所以像這樣的政策我覺得完全可以更開放一些，讓一些長期在北京就讀，父母親在北京工作就讀納稅的這些孩子實際上他完全可以在北京錄取，因為這個涉及到一個公民權和教育權的問題。

 

Feng Xin: Many people are worried about the possibility of “gaokao” immigration.

馮欣：很多人擔心高考移民的這種可能性。

 

Zhu Yongxin: This is of course possible. Since cities like Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou have more and better educational resources than rural areas and other regions, some people bring their kids to live here not because they work here but because they want their children to go to schools here. Then, they become “gaokao” immigrants. This is possible. However, reality is reality, because it's not easy at all to move to Beijing. First you have to find a place to live. Given Beijing's housing prices, the cost of living is very high in the first place. And secondly, it's not easy to find a job, either.

朱永新：高考移民當然是有可能的。因為北京相對來說，上海、北京、廣州，其他一些城市它的優質教育資源比較多，教育品質比農村、比其他地區好得多。所以有些人不是來打工把孩子帶過來，他就是為了送孩子來讀書過來打工，那就是成為了一個高考移民或者說就學移民，這種情況是有可能發生的。可能是可能，現實是現實。因為到北京來打工也不是一件容易的事情，因為你要找住的地方，北京的房價那么貴，首先它的生活成本非常之高。第二，他要找工作也不是件容易的事情。

 

Feng Xin: Do you think the hukou system is what caused the problem all these years?

馮欣：那您認為戶籍制度是不是導致異地高考這個問題得不到解決的一個根本原因？

 

Zhu Yongxin: There are two reasons. One is the hukou system, which divides people into rural residents and urban residents and puts a big label on everybody. If you are a rural resident, you stay in the countryside. If you are an urban resident, then you stay in the city. People rarely can move freely. If we reform the hukou system and allow people to migrate freely where they can become residents of a city naturally after a certain number of years, then the problem will naturally be solved.

朱永新：是兩個原因，一個是戶籍制度，一個是中國長期的城鄉二元結構導致了這個戶籍制度，每個人都貼上了嚴重的標簽。農村的就在農村，城市的就在城市。這個城市的就在這個城市，那個城市的就在另外一個城市，他很少能夠自由地遷徙。如果說戶籍制度的變革以后可以自由地遷徙，可以居住多少年以后就自然是這個城市的居民，自動取得戶籍，那么這些問題就自然而然解決了。其次就是錄取方法，現在我們的錄取是以省為單位的，

 

The second reason is the province-based system of admitting students. I once suggested we diminish the recruitment offices in provinces and give the recruitment power back to universities. Then the recruitment would be based on categories of national, provincial, municipal and private universities. All the national universities would be playing in one chess game. Universities like Peking and Tsinghua shouldn't give too much lenience to certain regions, except disadvantaged regions like Xinjiang and Tibet, as well as minority groups. Everybody else should compete fairly.

但是我曾經建議取消省的招辦，把錄取的權利整個交給學校。這樣一來，整個的錄取應該走國立大學、省立大學、市立大學、民辦大學的不同道路。如果國內大學就全國一盤棋，像北大清華這樣的學校照例不應該有太多的照顧，要照顧在區域上照顧，搞區域的配額制度是可以的，它只是針對弱勢區域，比如說新疆、西藏，每年要保證多少少數民族，采取配額制度自然就可以。其他的我覺得就應該公平競爭。

 

It will be helpful to take a look at how China’s universities recruit students in the first place. If we divide universities by their administrative subordination, there are usually two categories: universities managed by the Ministry of Education as well as other central government agencies, and universities managed by provincial governments.? Among about 2,000 universities in China, more than 90 percent are provincial universities. Every year, each university needs to submit a detailed recruitment plan to be approved by its supervision department. While central universities recruit students from all over the country, provincial universities mainly recruit students from home, meaning those with hukou in that province. If they plan to recruit students outside their home provinces, the local education department has to report such plans to the Ministry of Education for approval.

我們不妨先來看一看中國大學是如何招生的。如果我們將大學按隸屬關系劃分，通常有兩類：一類是由教育部和其他中央政府機構主管的央屬大學，二是由省級政府主管的省屬大學。在中國2000多所大學中，90%以上的是省屬大學。每年，每所大學需要向主管部門提交一份詳細的招生計劃，并獲得許可才能招生。央屬大學可在全國范圍內招生，而省屬大學主要在本省招生，也就是說招生對象是那些有本省戶口的學生。如果省屬大學想要招收外省學生，當地教育部門需要把招生計劃上報給教育部獲得許可。

 

However, the distribution of universities in China is extremely uneven. Most central universities are located in mega cities like Beijing and Shanghai; most of these are the best universities.According to China Education Online, for every 10,000 exam candidates, there are 11 universities in Beijing and 10 in Shanghai. But the number drops to 2 in Hubei, Shandong and Shaanxi provinces and below two in Henan province. However, in 2012, Henan had about 850,000 exam candidates and Beijing only 76,000. That’s according to the Ministry of Education’s numbers.

然而，中國大學在國內的分布極不均衡。多數央屬大學都位于像北京、上海這樣的大城市，而且很多這些院校都是國內最好的大學。據中國教育在線統計，每1萬名考生中，北京考生分配到的本地高校數量是11所，上海10所但是湖北、山東、陜西省的考生僅能分配到2所，河南省考生2所以下。然而，2012年河南大約有85萬考生，北京只有7.6萬名，以上是根據教育部提供的數據。

 

Take Peking University as an example. As one of China’s best universities, it is supervised by the Ministry of Education. China Education Online estimates in 2011 Peking University admitted about 32 students for every 10,000 Beijing candidates. But it accepted less than one per 10,000 from Henan, Hubei and Shandong provinces. That means Beijing’s exam candidates are 47 times more likely to get in Peking University than candidates from Henan.

以北京大學為例，作為中國最好的大學之一，北大由教育部監管。中國教育在線估計，2011年每1萬名北京考生中有32人被北京大學錄取。而河南、湖北、山東省每萬名考生只有不到1人被北大錄取。這意味著北京考生被北大錄取的幾率是河南考生的47倍。

 

But how does the system make it difficult to allow nonresident students to take the national college entrance exam without the constraints of their hukou? I directed this question to Xiong Bingqi, vice-president at the 21 Century Education Research Institute.

那么這樣的制度又是如何讓非戶籍學生就地參加高考變得困難呢？我采訪了21世紀教育研究院副院長熊丙奇。

 

Feng Xin: Dr Xiong, China's universities recruit students based on provinces. I have a question: How do universities decide how many students they are going to admit from different regions? How do they calculate the quota?

馮欣：熊博士，我們國家實行三省按計劃集中錄取制度，那么我有一個問題，就是各個大學是怎么樣決定每年在不同的地區招收多少學生的呢？它這個名額是怎么算出來的？

 

Xiong Bingqi: The recruitment quota is a result of power struggle among the university, the Ministry of Education and the local government. It's usually based on the university and local government's funding, and the student quota the university traditionally gives to one region. There isn't a strict way to work out the student quota.

熊丙奇：來確定每個學校在這個地方的招生計劃它是根據大學、教育部，還有地方這三方的力量博弈最后形成的結果。它往往會看這個地方跟學校投入有多少，再就是這個學校以前在這個地方投了多少指標，至于究竟在這個地方投放多少指標沒有一個明確的說法。

 

Feng Xin: Then, what's the problem with this system?

馮欣：那么這個制度有什么問題呢？

 

Xiong Bingqi: This province-based recruitment system is an unfair one to start with. It relies heavily on the local government's administration and creates huge geographical discrepancies in deciding student quota. It also encourages local education authorities to set criteria for exam registration based on such quotas. That's why candidates need to have hukou to be eligible for the exam. If the current constraints on nonresident students are loosened, people will naturally think about how many migrants there are. If there aren't, the problem can be solved quite easily. The chances of nonresident candidates filling up student quotas are small. Also, the government can adjust the student quota under such circumstances. Different interests might be balanced eventually.

熊丙奇：分省按計劃錄取制度本身就不是一個公平的制度，它自然而然就會強調一個行政的特點，它本身就制造了地區與地區之間教育的不公平，包括教育指標配置的不均衡，再一個是引導了各個地方按照這個教育指標來設置高考報名條件。我國的高考按戶籍報名就是靠這個制度來的。那么現在開放異地高考，自然而然他們就會考慮第一，流如人口有多少，你如果流動人口不多，這個問題還好解決，我們高考的指標被流動人口所瓜分的可能性就比較小。另外一個，國家可以在這種情況下調整這個指標，最后大家的利益可能實現一個很好的平衡。

 

But in migrant destinations like Beijing, Shanghai and Guangdong – the exam competition in Beijing is not very intense but in Guangdong it is more intense – the case would be different. How do we balance different interests between residents and nonresidents? If we don't break up the current system but only hope to make a breakthrough to lift the hukou constraints, we are in fact continuing the unfair system. I don't see much room for fairness.

但是對于流動人口很多的北京上海和廣東，再加上它們高考的競爭不是多么激烈，像北京和上海廣東相對來說是比較激烈的。這樣以來就會導致一個結果，就是我開放異地高考那么多流入人口來，本地人口的利益和外來人口怎么樣去平衡。你現在這個制度不打破，希望的是在這個制度之下開放異地高考，在目前戶籍的報名限制上，放開一條口子，實際上還是不公平的繼續，在一個本身不公平的制度之上要謀取公平顯然是沒有多大空間的。

 

Feng Xin: All right. Thank you, Dr Xiong.

馮欣：好的，謝謝您，熊博士。

 

To what extent will nonresident students influence resident students' chances of being admitted to universities? I visited Yang Dongping, professor in education at the Beijing Institute of Technology. He's been involved in reforming China's college entrance exam system for years.

究竟在多大程度上非戶籍學生會影響本地考生被大學錄取的機率？我走訪了北京理工大學的楊東平教授。我走訪了北京理工大學的楊東平教授。他多年來參與中國的高考改革。

 

Feng Xin: Opponents hold a view that once nonresidents are allowed to take the exam in cities like Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou, the local candidates' interests will be harmed. What do you think?

馮欣：反對人士中有一個觀點，就是一旦放開異地高考，在北京、上海、廣州這些大城市，會損害本地戶籍子女的利益。那么您怎么看呢？

 

Yang Dongping: In fact I don't think this is an issue to be worried about. If we look at the big picture, the number of exam candidates is declining. But the size of university recruitment is growing slowly. But the size of university recruitment is growing slowly. From a demand-supply point of view, local exam candidates' interests will hardly be affected. However, in regions like Beijing, Shanghai and Guangdong, white-collar parents are more concerned about the fairness of getting into central universities, or research universities, across different regions, because theoretically, central universities are open to candidates all over the nation. But in reality, they have serious problems with giving too much lenience to local residents. For example, (central) universities in Shanghai recruit a large portion of Shanghai students, and Beijing does the same. To some extent, this is against the principle of fairness. Therefore, I believe central universities' student quotas across provinces should be further balanced.

楊東平：實際上我個人認為這個問題，倒并不是需要特別過慮的。從整體的形式來看，考生的總量是在降低，高校的招生規模還在緩慢地增長。也就是說，高校擴招的進程還在持續，所以從供求關系來講，這個對本地考生的利益，不會有很明顯的影響。但是，在北、上、廣，或者很多地方，白領以上的這些考生家長，他更關注的是央屬高校。所謂叫研究型大學，或者叫優質高等教育資源的地域公平問題。因為央屬高校理論上，它是面向全國考生的，但是現在，在這些年的現實當中，它的本地化的傾向比較嚴重。比如講，上海的高校上海的考生比例特別大，北京的高校，北京的比例也特別大。在某種程度上，這是違反公正的原則，所以我個人認為，央屬高校的省域之間的均衡應該進一步加強。

 

Feng Xin: Let's say we have two categories of universities, central universities and provincial universities. It is the central universities that mostly need to be reformed. Is that correct?

馮欣：比如說，我們大學分作幾類，一類是中央直屬的這種大學，另外一類是省際的大學，最需要改進的是這些央屬大學。可不可以這么理解？

 

Yang Dongping: No. There are many problems with nonresident students not having exam eligibility. The supply of higher educational resources is only one facet. More importantly, there are high school and primary school resources. According to the Beijing government's numbers, there are more than 400,000 nonresident school children in Beijing, which is 40.9% of all school children. In Shanghai, this number has probably reached over 50%. What does this mean? By 2020，primary schools will need 300,000 more places and middle schools 115,000. High schools will also need to provide more places accordingly. That's the case without lifting the hukou limits for nonresident students. If the limits are lifted, and people get a signal that their children can take the exam once they have three, five or eight years of school records, the number will keep growing significantly. So that's the biggest pressure for cities like Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou. It's the pressure of compulsory education, not just how the universities give quotas.

楊東平：不，這個異地高考的問題很多。高等教育資源和研究型大學的資源的供應只是一個方面更重要的是高中教育資源和基礎教育資源。按現在北京市的這個數據，義務教育階段非京籍的人口40多萬，已經占基礎教育階段的在校生的40.9%，上海的話，這個數字可能已經超過50%。那么這個什么意思呢？到2020年，（北京）小學階段還要增加30萬個學位，初中階段要增加11萬個學位，高中階段的話，也會相應地增加。也就是說， 這是在異地高考政策還沒有啟動之前現在的現狀，那么如果這個政策啟動之后，如果給大家一個信號，

就是說如果你在京學籍滿三年、滿五年、滿八年，就可以在京參加高考的話，這個數字還會大幅度增加。所以這個是北、上、廣這些大城市的最大的壓力，基礎教育的壓力，不僅僅是高校招生的名額怎么分配。

 

Feng Xin: I heard many people mention a phrase "educational capacity." How is "educational capacity" calculated? How do we know how much educational capacity a city can provide?

馮欣：我聽到很多人提到一個詞，叫做“教育資源承載能力”。這個教育資源承載能力是怎么算出來的？我們怎么知道一個城市到底能夠承載多少的教育（人口）？

 

Yang Dongping: Actually, it's not about the capacity to provide educational resources. It's about a city's population capacity. Like Beijing, how big should the city's size be? How much water and land resources can be used? A megacity's population control is a very complicated matter. Attempting to control population through education is not realistic, I think. This has been proved over the years. In fact, population control should be done through splitting the city's multiple functions rather than limiting children's opportunities to receive compulsory education. It's not the way to go.

楊東平：這個其實講的城市的承載能力，講的主要不是教育資源，是指城市的資源。比如講北京市，它的城市規模應該多大，它的水資源、土地資源可以使用的程度，所以大城市的人口控制問題本身是一個非常復雜的問題，企圖單純地通過教育來控制人口規模，我個人認為是不真實的、不現實的，這么多年來也已經證明了這一點。實際上，大城市的人口控制必須通過疏解城市功能，而不是靠單向的所謂不給他解決義務教育的問題，不是通過這種方式。

 

These problems only demonstrate the degree of difficulty in addressing nonresident students' exam eligibility Many nonresident parents and scholars stress constitutional rights, rather than serve as the basis of policy-making. but local governments and authorities pay more attention to practicality So we should not have too many expectations from the policy. The problem can't be solved instantly. It needs a period of time for monitoring policy effects. For example, Shanghai has lifted the bars on higher vocational education. How many people will then flood to the city? Nobody knows. For example, if Beijing announces a requirement for six years of school record, how many migrants will then move to the city? What if the bar is set for five years? It's impossible to make an accurate prediction.

但是這些問題只是告訴我們異地高考這個政策的難度，并不是說這是限制這個政策、決策的一個依據。很多外地的家長或者有些學者強調的是憲法的平等權力但是對于主管部門、地方政府，它關注的主要是它的可操作性、可實現性。所以，通常我們說的對這個政策不能期望過高，不可能過快、過急，要有一個觀測和試驗的過程。比如講，像上海它現在說開放高等職業教育，它放開這個口，然后再看一看會有多少人進入，這個概念大概是多少，誰都不知道。比如說，北京市，如果我宣布門檻是六年的連續學籍，那么會有多少人融入？如果是五年的話會有多少人融入？這個東西是現在不可能事先做出精確的預測的。

 

Feng Xin: So are we trapped in a dilemma? On the one hand, it's the education equality granted by the Constitution. On the other hand, it's the megacities' population capacity. Do we only get one option?

馮欣：我們現在是不是似乎陷入了一個兩難的境地？一方面是憲法賦予公民的平等的受教育權，另外一方面是大城市承載人口的能力，是不是這兩個方面我們必須做一個取舍呢？

 

Yang Dongping: No, absolutely no. Education equality granted by the Constitution is already demonstrated in the current system. Admitting students based on provinces doesn't make it unconstitutional. It's not that only people who come to Beijing to study have their constitutional rights fulfilled. Do you think we can say that?

楊東平：完全不是這樣。憲法的平等權利在現在的考試資格當中也已經體現了，不是說你在本省錄取就違反了憲法權利，很難這么說。不是說都到北京來上學才叫落實了憲法權利，能這么說嗎，你覺得？

 

Feng Xin: Well, let's say Beijing's policy. Many nonresident students can only take part in entrance exams for vocational schools. But maybe with their capability, they could've made it to a proper university.

馮欣：但比如說，像這次新方案出臺，很多這個沒有北京戶籍的這些子女，他只能參加高職和中職的考試，但也許這些孩子本身能力，完全可以考一個非常好的一本。

 

Yang Dongping: In fact, they will choose to go back to their home provinces to take the exam. Let's put it this way. We need to pay attention to two groups. One is the white-collar parent group, which care more about research universities. They came to Beijing with more hopes to enjoy these resources. Then there are masses of ordinary migrant workers. They care more about ordinary educational resources. Their appeals are totally different. Under the current hukou system, it is difficult to reform the national college entrance exam system alone. I think what's more important is not that we discuss whether the policies are ideal or scientific today but that it made the first and an important step. It's a starting point, and we can keep looking.

楊東平：實際上，他們會選擇回本省參加名校考試。或者這么說，我們要關注兩個群體，一個是關注白領以上的，關注研究型大學也就是優質教育資源的群體，他們到北京來，更大程度是為了爭取這個資源。那么還有大量的是普通的公眾，或者是農民工的隨遷子女，他們關注的是普通教育資源，這兩個訴求是完全不一樣的。在存在戶籍制度的前提下，要讓高考單獨進行改革，它難就難在這兒。我覺得特別重要的并不在于，我們今天一定要評價現有的這個方案是否科學，是否理想。最重要的價值，它邁出了第一步，是一個起點，我們可以在這個起點上往前繼續探索。

 

Yang believes it's difficult to predict how many nonresident students schools in megacities can educate once the hukou limits are lifted. But Zhu believes it is possible.

楊東平認為，現在很難精確地估算出一旦高考的戶籍限制被取消，特大城市到底能承受多少非戶籍學生，但是朱永新認為這有可能估算出來。

 

Zhu Yongxin: I think there's nothing wrong with Beijing being cautious in seeking solutions. But I think it should do a quantitative study, finding out how many students there will be in Beijing, how many classrooms and teachers will be needed, and how much the city will be able to provide. With such capacity, how many people can be allowed to move in? If we deduct the number based on this logic, the problem can be solved. This is not a very difficult mathematical model. If we decide to do it, we can definitely make it happen. If this can't be done city-wise, it can at least be done at a district level. If not in districts, every block should do the survey. We should be able to find out.

朱永新：北京這樣一種謹慎的放開或者謹慎的探索，本身并沒有什么錯。最關鍵的就是它應該做一個量化的預測。目前我要摸清楚北京有多少學生，然后根據這個我建校舍，我引進師資，我能夠承載的教育能力配備大概是多少，有這樣的配備根據我的能力每年放多少，如果我根據放多少來倒推，這個問題就可以解決了，這個并不是很難的數學模型，我覺得只要下決心做，還是能夠做到的。大的北京不能做，每個區要去做，每個區不能做每個街道要做，網絡化的管理，應該能夠搞得清楚。